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+--- Thread: Cheapest device that can do ACES Filmic HDR>SDR tonemapping? (/showthread.php?tid=365264)
RE: Cheapest device that can do ACES Filmic HDR>SDR tonemapping? - jubilex - 2021-11-09
(2021-11-09, 17:50)svtsolutionllc Wrote: ARM devices can do ACES Filmic and Hable tonemapping, it’s just that nobody got round to doing it for v19, it’s now been recently added to the code for v20
Right, but that's what I'm saying -- it seems like in all the Kodi versions for those devices, the tonemapping can only be applied if all hardware acceleration is turned off in settings>player, and none of those devices can play HEVC HDR in software at anything but slideshow rates.
Tested most recent v20 Nexus nightlies for:
Kodi Android (on Amazon Fire 4k)
Coreelec (on Odroid N2+)
Libreelec (on Rpi3)
So I'm wondering if it's a hardware limitation of ARM devices that they can't apply tonemapping in conjunction with hardware acceleration, or if there is simply a problem with the GLES implementation in Kodi. In Windows Kodi v19, tonemapping (I believe the d3d version) can be applied without having to first disable any hardware acceleration.
RE: Cheapest device that can do ACES Filmic HDR>SDR tonemapping? - sarbes - 2021-11-09
(2021-11-09, 19:34)jubilex Wrote: So I'm wondering if it's a hardware limitation of ARM devices that they can't apply tonemapping in conjunction with hardware acceleration, or if there is simply a problem with the GLES implementation in Kodi. In Windows Kodi v19, tonemapping (I believe the d3d version) can be applied without having to first disable any hardware acceleration.I don't think there is a technical reason preventing the GPU rendering the VPU decoded frames. I guess nobody got around to implement it. But considering that a lot of devices even struggle to render the GUI at full frame rate, that's no surprise.
All post processing is done on the output processor, including scaling and tone mapping. Kodi can't do anything if the SOC/driver doesn't support it.
I'd be surprised if there is a 100$ SBC capable to do mapping on the GPU. Maybe newer Intel models can pull it off,
RE: Cheapest device that can do ACES Filmic HDR>SDR tonemapping? - noggin - 2021-11-10
(2021-11-09, 19:34)jubilex Wrote: So I'm wondering if it's a hardware limitation of ARM devices that they can't apply tonemapping in conjunction with hardware acceleration, or if there is simply a problem with the GLES implementation in Kodi. In Windows Kodi v19, tonemapping (I believe the d3d version) can be applied without having to first disable any hardware acceleration.
I think that most ARM devices have kernel/hardware support for THEIR implementation of tonemapping for EOTF and gamut conversion (both HDR->SDR and Rec 2020->Rec 709) - though in some cases this may only be implemented in a bespoke way (i.e. the way CoreElec and AMLogic stuff works, rather than the way LibreElec is moving to a V4L2 implementation), and it may be compromised and not have user-defined options (or the ability to import a user-defined LUT).
However the ACES tone mapping is likely to be implemented with something like a 3D CUBE LUT approach - which is potentially different to the implementations that ARM SoCs have built-in, and thus not supported in hardware as a specific tone mapping function and will instead rely on CPU or GPU capabilities for implementing that cube based LUT approach (and someone to have implemented a software path that allows this?)
RE: Cheapest device that can do ACES Filmic HDR>SDR tonemapping? - jubilex - 2021-11-10
Ah ok. Sorry for all the questions, I'm totally ignorant on this stuff.
I had thought that GLES implementation of this tonemapping would mean that it could be done on the hardware, I thought that's what GLES was, an interface to access the hardware? In other words couldn't this processing *always* have been done in software, and the recent addition of a GLES implementation of it in Kodi was specifically to do it using the hardware instead? That's why I don't understand why hardware acceleration must be turned *off* in order to use it.
RE: Cheapest device that can do ACES Filmic HDR>SDR tonemapping? - noggin - 2021-11-11
(2021-11-10, 15:53)jubilex Wrote: Ah ok. Sorry for all the questions, I'm totally ignorant on this stuff.
I had thought that GLES implementation of this tonemapping would mean that it could be done on the hardware, I thought that's what GLES was, an interface to access the hardware? In other words couldn't this processing *always* have been done in software, and the recent addition of a GLES implementation of it in Kodi was specifically to do it using the hardware instead? That's why I don't understand why hardware acceleration must be turned *off* in order to use it.
Beware confusing hardware accelerated decode (which on ARM platforms is totally separate to GPU stuff - as it's usually done in a VPU not the GPU) with GPU rendering (which is a GPU function). GLES is to do with GPU rendering, not accelerated decoding.
It's entirely possible that if you enable VPU hardware accelerated decoding, that the decoded video bypasses the GPU GLES-type processing on ARM platforms and is composited downstream, or is otherwise not accessible for GLES processing. It may be that CPU decode is the only way of making decoded video data available for GLES rendering?
Or it may be that the GLES tone mapping is optimised for PC graphics card architecture (which is different to ARM)
Tonemapping through a 3D Cube LUT is a non-trivial computational exercise - you have to do a 3D cube computation for every single pixel in every single frame (so for UHD HDR->SDR at 24fps you need to process 8 Megapixels in less than 42ms, or nearly 200 Megapixels per second, and each of those pixels will need multiple calculations to map within a new colour cube)
RE: Cheapest device that can do ACES Filmic HDR>SDR tonemapping? - jubilex - 2021-11-11
Ah, I see, thanks. At any rate it sounds like this isn't happening and HTPC is the only way for using ACES or Hable at this point.
I am still curious why the GLES tonemapping was added to Kodi if all the devices that use GLES are too limited to implement it.
RE: Cheapest device that can do ACES Filmic HDR>SDR tonemapping? - sarbes - 2021-11-12
Most AMD and Nvidia systems (and some Intel ones I guess) are fast enough to use it.
RE: Cheapest device that can do ACES Filmic HDR>SDR tonemapping? - jubilex - 2021-11-12
Ah, I would have thought anything running on those devices would already have been able to use the existing D3D and OpenGL versions.
Thanks for your patience.
RE: Cheapest device that can do ACES Filmic HDR>SDR tonemapping? - Klojum - 2021-11-19
@svtsolutionllc
As per Kodi's forum rule 2.2.2, kindly change your username, as names of commercial businesses are not allowed.
You can have your forum username changed here: https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=237108&page=last
Thanks in advance.
RE: Cheapest device that can do ACES Filmic HDR>SDR tonemapping? - ch0rtle - 2022-09-07
Just an update that behavior still occurs with Nexus Alpha 2 on my Fire Stick 4K Max. Hardware decoding needs to be turned off to get to tonemapping, and that destroys the video's frame rate.
RE: Cheapest device that can do ACES Filmic HDR>SDR tonemapping? - sarbes - 2022-09-07
So? Such devices are too weak to do tone mapping, as we have already discussed in this thread. This is a rather moot point.
RE: Cheapest device that can do ACES Filmic HDR>SDR tonemapping? - ch0rtle - 2022-09-07
I do not see it as a moot point. I am just updating findings using 1) a newer, slightly more powerful version of the Fire Stick and 2) an ostensibly newer build of Nexus. The OP might have been curious if that combination works better almost a year later on newer hardware. I see no reason to be dismissive of my contribution.
RE: Cheapest device that can do ACES Filmic HDR>SDR tonemapping? - graham-h - 2022-09-09
(2022-09-07, 10:09)sarbes Wrote: So? Such devices are too weak to do tone mapping, as we have already discussed in this thread. This is a rather moot point.The AML architecture has a hardware decoder and a VPU as mentioned above by @noggin. They are either both on or both off afaict. The VPU does colourspace conversion and 1-D LUTs (one for each channel) so it's perfectly possible to program in any tonecurve you want. But not trivial. What AML can't do, in hardware, is implement tonemapping in the way it's coded in Kodi. This may change in future as AML further develop drivers for GLES/V4L2. We can see hints of this in their more recent kernels. I can't see any sign of 3-D LUT HW support in the newest AML chips but that should be unnecessary unless we are talking about very sophisticated tonemap algorithms. I don't think even Dolby go to those lengths.
IMVHO, Reinhard, Hable and the so-called ACES filmic are not ideal for HDR-SDR conversion, although they do make watching HDR on my PC infinitely better. Reinhard and Hable come from the world of gaming, where a graphics engine can spit out any luminance that's mathematically possible and their methods are designed to rein that wide range into one suitable for display on a monitor. HDR-SDR conversion is different. The conversion is from one fixed range (bounded by the master display luminances and/or MaxCLL) to another, bounded by the target display luminances.
The tonemapping we have implemented in OSMC's Vero4k seems to have gone down well with users. @jubilex may wish to try it out.
RE: Cheapest device that can do ACES Filmic HDR>SDR tonemapping? - looun - 2022-09-09
the only way for have "Cheapest" tonemapping is Low Latency Dolby Vision DTM with device like apple tv /firestick with dolby vision force ouput + HDFury Vertex/Dr HDMI 4k
https://www.avforums.com/threads/dolby-vision-including-hdr10-conversion-w-dtm-on-projectors-yes.2254350/
https://www.avsforum.com/threads/dolby-vision-including-hdr10-conversion-w-dtm-on-projectors.3097934/
RE: Cheapest device that can do ACES Filmic HDR>SDR tonemapping? - graham-h - 2022-09-09
I suspect the OP wouldn't class any HD Fury device as 'cheap'.