(2015-09-29, 20:59)fritsch Wrote: Sunflux summarizes everything that makes sense one page back. Lauri explains the technical details. Everything was said - the rest is confusion and BigL did not get it yet :-)

(2015-09-29, 20:59)fritsch Wrote: Sunflux summarizes everything that makes sense one page back. Lauri explains the technical details. Everything was said - the rest is confusion and BigL did not get it yet :-)

(2015-09-29, 21:41)BigL-New Wrote:

(2015-09-29, 20:59)fritsch Wrote: Sunflux summarizes everything that makes sense one page back. Lauri explains the technical details. Everything was said - the rest is confusion and BigL did not get it yet :-)

I was so busy writing my own posts that had no time for everybody's explanations ;-)

My only confusion right now is how to distinguish driver level (xrandr) and TV level in cases like mine - TV has no UI for RGB range so i can only set it on driver level and check on the same level (first one and also last one in chain explained by Sunflux). Specially how can i get in this situation best settings according to Sunflux:

Code:

Driver 0-255  -> Kodi Limited -> Dithering Off -> TV Limited

I cannot set TV to Limited on UI level, only on driver (xrandr) level. So i can have:

Driver 0-255 -> Kodi Full/Limited -> Dithering On/Off -> TV Full

or

Code:

Driver 16-235  -> Kodi Full/Limited -> Dithering On/Off -> TV Limited

(2015-09-29, 21:55)Hufvudet Wrote: Still....at least for me, the question remains: why would we even consider dithering when limited range is kept untouched through the chain? I don't understand which calculations might benefit from dithering in limited range. It's very obvious in full range.

1. After scaling the picture it contains pixels that fall between the original integer values. Dithering allows to keep some of those results.
   
2. YCbCr -> RGB conversion doesn't always give integer results. I'm not sure if dithering or rounding is correct. I'm guessing dithering, but maybe there is a standard that answers this? Granger rainbow might show a difference. Sunflux, would you like to do some more pixel peeping?
   
3. Not really keeping untouched limited range, but.. My original reason for implementing dithering was to give 3dlut and other advanced processing higher effective output precision.
   

Quote:Is it only me?

edit: /me hides from fritsch after stirring up more trouble, sorry

(2015-09-29, 22:27)lmyllari Wrote:

(2015-09-29, 21:55)Hufvudet Wrote: Still....at least for me, the question remains: why would we even consider dithering when limited range is kept untouched through the chain? I don't understand which calculations might benefit from dithering in limited range. It's very obvious in full range.

I can think of three things:

1. After scaling the picture it contains pixels that fall between the original integer values. Dithering allows to keep some of those results.
   
2. YCbCr -> RGB conversion doesn't always give integer results. I'm not sure if dithering or rounding is correct. I'm guessing dithering, but maybe there is a standard that answers this? Granger rainbow might show a difference. Sunflux, would you like to do some more pixel peeping?
   
3. Not really keeping untouched limited range, but.. My original reason for implementing dithering was to give 3dlut and other advanced processing higher effective output precision.
   

If rounding to 8bit precision would leave the picture untouched, dithering won't change it.

Quote:Is it only me?

I think it's a good question.



edit: /me hides from fritsch after stirring up more trouble, sorry

(2015-09-29, 21:41)BigL-New Wrote: My only confusion right now is how to distinguish driver level (xrandr) and TV level in cases like mine - TV has no UI for RGB range so i can only set it on driver level...

(2015-09-29, 21:54)fritsch Wrote: So - your TV just sets what the GPU with xrandr sets, so it reads the INFO Frame and sets the TV accordingly?

(2015-09-29, 21:54)fritsch Wrote: Did you verify this? With some Test patterns?

If that's really the case, use:

Driver 0-255 -> Kodi Full -> Dithering On -> TV Full

(2015-09-29, 20:46)BigL-New Wrote:

(2015-09-29, 19:52)john.cord Wrote: Today i tried to find the HDMI Black Level Setting in my TX-P50GT30 (European) and i did not find it too... good to know that it does not exist. In my oppinion the European Model is fixed to Limited Colorspace.

At least not on my TV - you can youse xrandr to check what's available for yours. On mine it reports:

Code:

Broadcast RGB: Full
    supported: Automatic, Full, Limited 16:235

So you can clearly see that both are accepted (at least at input level). Right now HDMI negotiation of Full is forced by autostart (see post #1). But Kodi itself sends Full or Limited - it depends on settings. At least on my TV i can clearly see difference - with Limited colors are washed out. But with Full movies are very dark. Yo can check which settings are best on post nr 1360.

But (IMHO only) best settings are with Kodi set to Full, no dithering, but on TV level setting forced to Limited (usung xrandr). So on my setup autostart looks like this:

Code:

OUTPUT=`xrandr -display :0 -q | sed '/ connected/!d;s/ .*//;q'`
xrandr -display :0 --output $OUTPUT --set "Broadcast RGB" "Limited 16:235"
/usr/bin/kodi --standalone

(2015-09-29, 23:15)BigL-New Wrote: I've checked with test patterns and IMHO best settings are:

Driver 16-235 -> Kodi Full -> Dithering On/Off -> TV Limited

Driver 0-255 -> Kodi Limited -> Dithering On/Off -> TV Full

With your proposition (Driver 0-255 -> Kodi Full -> Dithering On -> TV Full) i've total mess with black levels. Whole calibration pattern for black is totally black, i cannot see flashing even levels over 16.

Best one is:
Driver 16-235 -> Kodi Full -> Dithering On/Off -> TV Limited - everything in test patterns is 100% correct. I only cannot see much difference with dithering On/Off (looks the same IMHO).

In such configuration xrandr reports:

Broadcast RGB: Limited 16:235
supported: Automatic, Full, Limited 16:235

and autostart has:

xrandr -display :0 --output $OUTPUT --set "Broadcast RGB" "Limited 16:235"

(2015-09-30, 02:12)Sunflux Wrote: For quality, none of the xrandr Limited modes are best.

In order of best quality working downwards:

#1: Driver 0-255 + Kodi Limited + Dithering On/Off + TV Limited
#2: Driver 0-255 + Kodi Full + Dithering On + TV Auto/Full
#3: Driver 16-235 + Kodi Full + Dithering On + TV Auto/Limited

And those three are the only real viable options. #1 is essentially untouched - the holy grail of video purists everywhere. #2 looks very good, but it's doing a LOT of processing to the image, which means it's what I'd use only if I'm unable to force my TV to accept Limited input on a full-range signal, as is required for #1 to work correctly. #3 is likely to be the default option in Kodi, but it's just as processed as #2 and yet still has minor visible banding, which makes it a very distant third in my book.

Now, will the average person sitting at an average distance from their TV watching typical real-world programming notice any difference between #1, #2 or #3? Probably not. But if we were average, we would not be here in this thread talking about this!

(2015-09-30, 08:03)lexi81 Wrote:

(2015-09-30, 02:12)Sunflux Wrote: For quality, none of the xrandr Limited modes are best.

In order of best quality working downwards:

#1: Driver 0-255 + Kodi Limited + Dithering On/Off + TV Limited
#2: Driver 0-255 + Kodi Full + Dithering On + TV Auto/Full
#3: Driver 16-235 + Kodi Full + Dithering On + TV Auto/Limited

And those three are the only real viable options. #1 is essentially untouched - the holy grail of video purists everywhere. #2 looks very good, but it's doing a LOT of processing to the image, which means it's what I'd use only if I'm unable to force my TV to accept Limited input on a full-range signal, as is required for #1 to work correctly. #3 is likely to be the default option in Kodi, but it's just as processed as #2 and yet still has minor visible banding, which makes it a very distant third in my book.

Now, will the average person sitting at an average distance from their TV watching typical real-world programming notice any difference between #1, #2 or #3? Probably not. But if we were average, we would not be here in this thread talking about this!

#1 #2 gave me both the correct black pattern. But #1 gave me light grey in the white pattern up to 250. #2 gave me white above 234. So I chose #2, can anybody shine a light on that? Why does kodi limited give gray in the white pattern.