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logan_x50 · (This post was last modified: 2015-07-14, 12:33 by negge.)

Is there a chance of being able to enter a http address for the external EPG source? This problem have been driving me nuts. The Vbox Gateway displays "string format not supported" for the UK HD channels so no EPG guide. Despite every STB and TV in the UK displaying EPG for HD channels Vbox blame the broadcaster and sent me down a route to xml grab using atlas etc. Unfortunately I don't have a PC so the available grabbers won't work. What I have found is some URLs that might work but the add-on looks to me like it will only accept a local or network source not internet.

Any suggestions would be welcome...since HD channels are 90% of what you want to watch in the UK

**negge** · 2015-07-06, 18:07

1) VBox already fixed a similar issue for me (Finnish TV), I don't see why they would blame the broadcaster this time. Try e-mailing them again, from me they wanted a sample of a mux that contains a channel with the invalid EPG data

2) I haven't wanted to add a URL option to the settings because of issues other addons (and by extent Kodi) has had in the past with addons hammering online sources for XMLTV updates.

What operating system do you use on your device? OpenElec?

logan_x50 · 2015-07-07, 09:34

(2015-07-06, 18:07)negge Wrote: 1) VBox already fixed a similar issue for me (Finnish TV), I don't see why they would blame the broadcaster this time. Try e-mailing them again, from me they wanted a sample of a mux that contains a channel with the invalid EPG data

Hello Negge,
Thanks for the reply. Have been working with Amir from VBox. I agree the support has been great but in the end pointed at "the source of non-standard EPG" and advised to try Atlas and xml grabber option. Problem i have is i don't run windows or linux which the grabbers i could find require.

(2015-07-06, 18:07)negge Wrote: 2) I haven't wanted to add a URL option to the settings because of issues other addons (and by extent Kodi) has had in the past with addons hammering online sources for XMLTV updates.

What operating system do you use on your device? OpenElec?

I have OpenElec on the RPi2

**negge** · 2015-07-07, 11:17

Does the Atlas grabber not work on Linux (Openelec)?

**jjd-uk** · 2015-07-07, 11:37

If I've understood right it's due to the Huffman Table encoding done on the HD channels EPG data and requires anybody wanting to use the data to obtain a licence in order to be able to decode the data, however the licence is royalty free so there should be no payment required by vbox, see http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/06/14/...d_controls

**negge** · 2015-07-07, 11:58

Someone should e-mail this information to VBox so they can implement the fix.

logan_x50 · 2015-07-24, 13:11

(2015-07-07, 11:58)negge Wrote: Someone should e-mail this information to VBox so they can implement the fix.

I did provide VBox support with the email thread and try and follow up but radio silence unfortunately. So word of warning to UK customers is that there is no OTA guide for HD channels

**negge** · 2015-07-25, 10:05

Let's hope they're working on it.

fryrpc · 2015-08-17, 15:31

Hello I am a new VBox TV Gateway customer in the UK. I am looking to move from my Windows 7/8 Media Centre PC's with USB DVB-T tuners to Windows 10 (Microsoft dropped Media Centre) Kodi PC's. I also wanted to be able to write the recorded programs direct to the central NAS so the VBox TV Gateways looks like just the boxes to do the job and upgrades to DVB-T2 (HD) at the same time.

This is what I have read about the HD Electronic Program Guide (EPG), having come across the same issue, string format not supported, and investigated further.
Freeview HD/BBC wanted to put DRM on the actual media stream but this was rejected by Ofcom. So instead they got the OK to use Huffman encoding on the OTA (Over the Air) EPG data - to effectively encrypt the information that could be used to schedule recordings, series link etc. Any Freeview HD box manufacturer would then only obtain the Huffman decoding information once they signed up to restrictions that meant they had to put DRM on the recordings they make and prevent user's copying the recorded file.
The VBox TV Gateway does not have access to the Huffman decoding information and that is why the EPG for HD channels report "string format not supported" as the EPG data that it is reading is gobbledygook. On the upside the HD recordings are not DRM'd.
This is why users are pushed towards the XMLTV program to download the non Huffman encoded HD EPG data from Atlas in XML format and use this instead of the OTA EPG data in Kodi to workaround this issue. When this has been done you get both HD EPG data and non DRM'd recordings.
Having spoken with VBox they have said that they are "working on adding direct external XMLTV support to the VBox" which means, if implemented, it could import the XML EPG file from the NAS to replace the OTA EPG - resolving the issue at source so all clients would get HD EPG data.

So in summary as a new customer I was a little disappointed that the VBox TV Gateway does not decode the HD OTA EPG data but am pleased that the HD content is not DRM'd. The workaround to automate the downloading of EPG data from Atlas using XMLTV is OK if you have the time and resources to set this up but then all Kodi clients need access to import it. This does not address other clients who read HD EPG from the VBox TV Gateway - the importing of the XML on the VBox TV Gateway would be a big step forward as it would then serve up the correct HD EPG to all clients.

sunstealer · (This post was last modified: 2015-11-12, 03:50 by sunstealer.)

(2015-08-17, 15:31)fryrpc Wrote: Hello I am a new VBox TV Gateway customer in the UK. I am looking to move from my Windows 7/8 Media Centre PC's with USB DVB-T tuners to Windows 10 (Microsoft dropped Media Centre) Kodi PC's. I also wanted to be able to write the recorded programs direct to the central NAS so the VBox TV Gateways looks like just the boxes to do the job and upgrades to DVB-T2 (HD) at the same time.

This is what I have read about the HD Electronic Program Guide (EPG), having come across the same issue, string format not supported, and investigated further.
Freeview HD/BBC wanted to put DRM on the actual media stream but this was rejected by Ofcom. So instead they got the OK to use Huffman encoding on the OTA (Over the Air) EPG data - to effectively encrypt the information that could be used to schedule recordings, series link etc. Any Freeview HD box manufacturer would then only obtain the Huffman decoding information once they signed up to restrictions that meant they had to put DRM on the recordings they make and prevent user's copying the recorded file.
The VBox TV Gateway does not have access to the Huffman decoding information and that is why the EPG for HD channels report "string format not supported" as the EPG data that it is reading is gobbledygook. On the upside the HD recordings are not DRM'd.
This is why users are pushed towards the XMLTV program to download the non Huffman encoded HD EPG data from Atlas in XML format and use this instead of the OTA EPG data in Kodi to workaround this issue. When this has been done you get both HD EPG data and non DRM'd recordings.
Having spoken with VBox they have said that they are "working on adding direct external XMLTV support to the VBox" which means, if implemented, it could import the XML EPG file from the NAS to replace the OTA EPG - resolving the issue at source so all clients would get HD EPG data.

So in summary as a new customer I was a little disappointed that the VBox TV Gateway does not decode the HD OTA EPG data but am pleased that the HD content is not DRM'd. The workaround to automate the downloading of EPG data from Atlas using XMLTV is OK if you have the time and resources to set this up but then all Kodi clients need access to import it. This does not address other clients who read HD EPG from the VBox TV Gateway - the importing of the XML on the VBox TV Gateway would be a big step forward as it would then serve up the correct HD EPG to all clients.

Looks like you're right about this. Looking into this a bit further, it seems that MythTV and other non-licensed solutions have managed to get around this limitation on DVB-T2 by using the Huffman tables for Freesat, which are apparently the same. The full tables plus some code implementing a Huffman decode (simple) are including in this:

http://www.rst38.org.uk/vdr/freesat_vdr2.2.0.diff

I will speak to Amir to see if their engineers might consider trying this out.

Incidentally, some of this information comes from this post by pclare (author of DVBGuide EPG extraction software) on Digital Spy forum:

Quote:Freeview HD EPG text uses exactly the same Huffman text compression scheme as used on Freesat. This is the ATSC system as published in ATSC document "A/65C Program and System Information Protocol". The one difference though and what makes it proprietary is that the two sets of Huffman trees used to encode all the character pairs are tailored to the character pairings found found in UK EPG data. This makes the compression more efficient than if the American data tables had been used (and of course it keeps it proprietary since unlike the USA tables the Freesat/view tables have not been made public).

sunstealer · 2015-11-12, 03:46

(2015-07-07, 11:37)jjd-uk Wrote: If I've understood right it's due to the Huffman Table encoding done on the HD channels EPG data and requires anybody wanting to use the data to obtain a licence in order to be able to decode the data, however the licence is royalty free so there should be no payment required by vbox, see http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/06/14/...d_controls

Yes - on this point, it seems the BBC wanted to DRM their channels but this was not allowed by Ofcom, so they came up with a workaround - provide a 'free' license i.e. without financial cost - BUT make it a provision of the license that any manufacturer e.g. vboxcomm has to DRM the video/audio stream if they want access to the EPG data. So the two Huffman table trees are not provided by the BBC without this agreement and thus, a non-licensed device can access the streams but get garbage for the EPG - the likely reason for this is to protect their revenue streams for boxsets by killing the ability to series record HD series e.g. David Attenborough nature docs etc.

jahutchi · 2015-11-12, 14:49

I have the VBox freesat model and find that I only get epg data from the vbox for the channel that is currently playing. I ended up installing xmltv and configured the related options in the addon but that was a real pain to setup.

From reading above it sounds like the freesat and freeview HD channels both have the same underlying issue.

I hope that when the issue with freeview HD channels is eventually resolved (presumably in the firmware), then the freesat models will also be fixed at the same time.

sunstealer · (This post was last modified: 2015-11-12, 23:56 by sunstealer.)

(2015-11-12, 14:49)jahutchi Wrote: I have the VBox freesat model and find that I only get epg data from the vbox for the channel that is currently playing. I ended up installing xmltv and configured the related options in the addon but that was a real pain to setup.

From reading above it sounds like the freesat and freeview HD channels both have the same underlying issue.

I hope that when the issue with freeview HD channels is eventually resolved (presumably in the firmware), then the freesat models will also be fixed at the same time.

Yes - what I meant is that both EPGs (freeview and freesat) for HD channels are encoded with Huffman encoding - this is not currently addressed by the vbox in either. The freesat Huffman tables have been reverse engineered and are now available (as per my post) so they can be used to fix both problems in theory - the question will be whether vboxcomm are willing to do this for a small market in the UK - my impression when I bought my vbox some time ago was that they had only sold a handful to the UK back then - things are getting better now as it seems a user base is building up - the best way to get the problem fixed will be for a big enough user base to be established that we can start to influence development decisions at the company. As it is, they are very reasonable and help as much as they can to develop new things - they have already done quite a number of things in recent firmwares in response to my feedback and the firmware has definitely improved.

fryrpc · 2015-11-25, 14:45

Just a note to let you know that VBox are working on a firmware update, currently in Beta testing, that if it works should allow a couple of options to address the HD EPG issue.

Channel Pairing
Allows you to set the HD channel to use the OTA EPG for the associated SD channel i.e. "BBC TWO HD" uses EPG data for "BBC TWO" (Standard Definition)

External XML
Allows you to use XML EPG data instead of OTA EPG i.e. allowing VBox to read XML data downloaded, from Atlas, to a local network location

In my experience VBox are listening and are open to, and working on, suggestions to make the product better :-)

logan_x50 · 2015-11-25, 18:50

That's great. Sharing the SD OTA EPG...what a simple, genius, idea!